bride and prejudiced week two: flirting with other lovers
hey gang - here are the first set of questions i'd like us all to respond to in regards to our bridge and prejudiced series:
#1 how accurate do you feel the portrayal of "the church" is in the series? is it too harsh, or too gentle, in your opinion/experience? and, do you feel like the graphic of "the bride" that we're using for the series art enhances or detracts from the truth/validity of the series?
#2 when we consider the two weeks' talks together, what themes do you begin to see emerging within the series' context? i.e. is there some thematic overlap from week 1 to week 2, and - if so - what do you think it is? in addition, what do you think god is teaching you about how you're a part of the church/bride?
#3 when we speak of the various temptations faced by the bride, which one do you think westwinds [in particular] needs to be most wary of? was there one that resonated for you personally?
#4 if you could wave a magic wand and get whatever you wished for, how would the series wrap up in week three?
ok - thanks everyone for your input!
david
#1 how accurate do you feel the portrayal of "the church" is in the series? is it too harsh, or too gentle, in your opinion/experience? and, do you feel like the graphic of "the bride" that we're using for the series art enhances or detracts from the truth/validity of the series?
#2 when we consider the two weeks' talks together, what themes do you begin to see emerging within the series' context? i.e. is there some thematic overlap from week 1 to week 2, and - if so - what do you think it is? in addition, what do you think god is teaching you about how you're a part of the church/bride?
#3 when we speak of the various temptations faced by the bride, which one do you think westwinds [in particular] needs to be most wary of? was there one that resonated for you personally?
#4 if you could wave a magic wand and get whatever you wished for, how would the series wrap up in week three?
ok - thanks everyone for your input!
david
posted by david mcdonald at 1:34 PM
11 Comments:
Great sermon!
Question 1: I feel you were very balanced with your view of the church. It was just right. Your graphic of the "Bride of Christ" is a very good visual aid.
Question 2: Still thinking on this question, but redemption comes to mind...
Question 3: I would say WW's temptation as a corporate body would be pride.
Question 4: Not sure? You can't go wrong with tying everything together with relation to Christ's redemption towards us (WE) and redemption and grace between us (WE).
As Larry the cable Guy might say: "I don't care who you are, that was a great sermon!"
First off, Dave, I think you made some excellent points, but I'll get right to answering your specific questions . . .
#1 As far as the graphic of the bride goes, there's no denying that the church is far, far from the perfect blushing bride (on this side of eternity), but I think God sees her (us) NOW is through the eyes of redemption--as the finished product, holy & smashingly beautiful--as we will be on the other side of eternity. That's not to say that we can sit on our hands until He returns for us. Hardly. We have a long way to go (I know b/c I'm part of the church and I've got a looong way to go!) But to portray the Church--the Body of Christ--as something less than she is kinda hurts. At least that's how I see it. It would be like someone asking me what my husband looks like and I reach into my wallet and pull out the worst possible photo I could find. It wouldn't honor him.
#2 I was in kid's church last week and didn't even think about picking up the CD, duh. So, I missed it. Won't let that happpen again!
#3 I see breaking of community as a big temptation. I'm blissfully ignorant of the painful things that went on before I got to WCC (and wish to remain that way), but it sounds like there's a need for on-going work in that area and I know that's being addressed & looks like progress is already being made. That's great!
#4 My wish for Week 3 would maybe address specific ways "we" as a church can be the
Body of Christ in Jackson--ways to live that out in tangible, practical ways.
Great Stuff David. Won't be too analytical. 1) I enjoy the words contrasting the image of the bride needing to "be more beautiful" to God, hence morality & dancing with our divine creator. The visual is shocking... 2)Somehow, for me, the theme of community is drawing toward my need to explore my church. I have actively pursued more discussions following Fusion. 3)People smiling / welcominmg each person, rather than looking past familiar faces (I have found myself doing this). 4)Just as you are lead by God... I look forward to it - but I will need to see it on the "pod" thing - as I will be away.
Leonard
#1 Before this series I had never really understood the whole "the church is the bride of Christ" thing. For new people, I think your portrayal was very clear, well thought out, and easy to understand. I think there was a really good balance of "we are really an ugly, horrible wife" and a message of hope that not only can we improve but reminded us that Christ death made us pure in God’s eyes. Even though we don’t deserve to be the blushing bride, we are seen that way.
The graphic also helps to remind me on a daily basis that when I sin and do things that God doesn't want me doing, I am being unfaithful to God. I don't want that.
#2 It is not only my relationship with God that is important to him but also my relationship with and within the church/we. That I am an important part of the church/bride and there are things that only I can bring to the table. If I don’t step up and play an active role, that need may go unfulfilled. We need to work together ….including me.
#3 There seems to be a lot of talk about “want”. We want to build better community. We want to get more involved in Jackson. We want to welcome people to become part of our WW community. But just like the wife who wants to lose ten pounds or wants to spend more time with her husband, we need to be looking for ways to do those things. I think a lot of people want to help but don’t know what to do. I know I struggle with this. So….
#4 Challenge people to take the next step. If we’re really committed to make the church “WE” and that the church is the bride of Christ, we each need to be getting involved and be an active member. It’s not enough to come to church each week and leave, giving nothing back to something that gives us so much. Maybe come up with a list of simple things that need to get done around the building. Or, a list of things that need to be purchased or donated that could really help. Challenge people to sign up for one small thing they can do that would contribute to the big picture. It makes me think of the lego’s we received in our ipac’s. How cool would it be to see what all of those lego’s could make together?
Awesome sermon! Who Christ is is really reflected in what you are saying...very understandable...very little christianese!!! The picture of Bridezilla became real as it relates to the picture of the church...good job! Now on to the questions:
1) Accurate portrayal of the church which made the picture too real and uncomfortable for me!
2) Common themes for me are: love (real love), community (real community),redemption, personal responsibility to love like Christ and participate in an authentic way in community. You + me =WE!
3)One of our greatest temptations is "saying" and not "doing" Community is hard to do. We need exposure to good examples of true community to increase the motivation of others to want to participate in COMMUNITY!
4) When we talk about all of this, the only way to get people out of there seats to participate is to give them something to participate in immediately. It is putting legs and feet :-) to what you have been saying. What are some immediate needs at the church...let them be known, then provide opportunity during or immediately following the service to sign up for some form of WE...Community!
OK - to the point...
1) I have appreciated over the past two weeks that while talking about all the really bad stuff the church has done over the years, we have been able to do so in a way that we are not reliving or defending those things, but also not sweeping them under a rug. I think it has been an accurate and fair representation.
As for the artwork, I like the portrayal of the bride as it really makes one start to think honestly about themselves and how they look as the bride, but I think we also need to temper that with the image of how God sees us - our potential. Similar to week one with the ideal vs real pictures.
2) I have been seeing a local vs. universal church theme. The importance of an immediate community so that we can affect the larger community. That's been on my mind a lot lately - being more WE.
3)Not sure about a temptation, but I do get a feeling that there are a lot of people at westwinds that are not connected to the community.
4) Maybe the way God sees what the church can be and how do we actually take a step in the right direction realizing we'll never be perfect.
#1- I missed the first of this series but went back to listen to it because I felt I had missed a big part of the series. I really liked the portrayal of the church not because it makes us look good but because it proves who we are.. we are scarred, ugly, and in need of a real and true God..
#2- Theme- Community=the church=us. I am learning more about my part in the church but I continue to realize how vital it is we step away from the the box humans have put "the church" into.
#3- I think Westwinds needs to continue to keep in perspective community. I think with right community comes accountability and friendships that help with those dealing with other temptations despair/morality etc. I resonated with the breaking of community.
Dave,
Very interesting analogy! Never heard it portrayed like that. If the current audience is roughly 60% new to WWCC in the last year or two, what audience is the point intended? Is it broad-based for us all? What is it that the leadership hopes folks walk away with after hearing and reflecting? What actions are associated and ultimately measured (in some fashion)?
1.) I thought it was accurate and provided a very good, not often heard perspective. Not harsh, simply accurate.
2.) Definately the "we" perspective and that we are really all "bridzilla" relative to Christ. Yet through Christ God the father sees us at pure and without blemish. Purchased at a great price.
3.) "Community" #1. The fact that the WWCC is 50-60+% new over the past 1-2 years is I think a tremendous opportunity to build community unhindered by old collective bias & baggage.
4.) The promise and hope of being presented as a bride, pure and without blemish (through Christ). The challenges that are associated with waiting for the Bridegroom and keeping oil in our lamps...
Greetings. It is nice to see people adding to this cool discourse. I'd like to jump in. This is me jumping in:) I came in on the series late and was a little intimidated/confounded/disturbed by the bride image used on the screen, largly because I was clueless to why it was there. Once I got the frame of reference right, I felt more at ease and enlightened. It is a suitable graphic that communicates well. I'm not sure I can adequately speak about all of the bride's roles and functions, given my knowledge base, however I do think that the church as a bride walks a fine line between being the traditional, matronly wife and the exciting, trendy newly wed. As The church moves forward, it seems necessary to infuse the new with enough of the traditional to ensure that when we go to church, we are getting something different from what we would get if we just stayed home. Frequently, when people begin their walk, they are in search of an alternative to what the secular world has already offered them. If what they find in church is too much like the rest of society, then it seems a little deminished in its value. If it is too conservative, it seems exclusive. Having a bride that has the wisdom of a wife and the excitement of a newly wed is probably ideal. How you "create" this bride can be challenging in deed. Personally, I'd like to see just a little more matron. I suppose, I'm of the older set at Westwinds; but if I could wave my wand, I'd tone down the visuals on the screen and focus on getting the audience connected during the musical sequences. People feel uplifted when they are actively participating in the lifting. It's not the band's job to lift me by themselves. Also, sometimes the listener likes handle some of the lifitng for themselves. That's probably enough. Thanks for listneing and thank you Dave for setting this up.
hey gang - thanks for your thoughtful comments!
i'm glad the image of the bride was so provactive - it was designed to serve as a catalyst for thought and conversation and it appears to have been very successful. without having a great desire to be provactive for the sake of provocation, i think it is really, really important for us to be poked out of our comforts in order to be reoriented to the noticeably UNcomfortable life that jesus led as a homeless, disgraced, wandering illigitimate son of a prophet who claimed to be god.
in addition, if i was to give the church in north america a letter grade for our passion - not even our effectiveness - at loving people, sharing god's love with people, uplifting the broken, advocating for the defenseless, etc... i could not give us an "A" [not by a long shot]. i really do believe that westwinds is different than most places, but i also believe that god is calling us to be more than we currently are - and we need to be continually reminded of that.
that mission, by the way, is completely the opposite of how most people conceptualize community. "community", for most people, really is reduced to simply having some friends at church; "mission", on the other hand, really is about changing our understanding of who the church is and who we are called to invite into it.
community focuses on who we are.
mission focuses on who we want to become.
so, to preach and teach on both simultaneously always makes me concerned that some will gravitate to unhealthy community and only want a "bless-me club" and/or that others will shun community and burn themselves out in an effort to win the lost.
my solution? love everybody. forget about who you like or who you like to hang out with - we're called to give up those preferences almost immediately. if you don't like somebody, beg god for his perspective on them. if no one is nice to you or welcomes you into community - then welcome them into yours [even better, welcome them first before they are ever given the opportunity to neglect you, which will hurt your feelings and make you shy aware from being loving].
the identity of westwinds as a church is in a bit of a coccoon right now, but i truly believe we are emerging into a much more beautiful, and true, version of ourselves at this very moment.
look for my next post re: this upcoming week.
i think you'll all be with me on the content of week 3 - so buckle in and pray hard!
david
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