a capital experience: beyond tithing
hey gang - i'm beginning a 3wk series on money in which i'll be tackling the ugly subject of tithing. you should know, before we begin, that i've always been a legalist when it comes to tithing and have never been persuaded by any of the anti-tithe arguments i've run across through the years.
this has all recently changed to a dramatic degree.
so, in this series, i'll be deconstructing the tithe. i realize that this has been done before at westwinds, but - to be honest - i've heard and read those sermons and have a low opinion of the hermeneutical methodology employed therein. "a capital experience" is going to take us well beyond those talks and into some very new territory - at least for me!
with this in mind, i'd like your help with the following
#1 was i able to deconstruct tithing without sounding like a jerk, or a know-it-all? was i able to be gracious in the midst of pulling apart a long-standing church-wide belief?
#2 was the deconstruction piece of the talk helpful? did it feel coherent? were you able to follow my arguments about why tithing is biblical but not christian? did you feel like there were areas i left out of my explanation? did you feel like i "fudged" anything?
#3 once we moved past the deconstruction of the tithe, what did you learn about how we ought to manage our resources? did you feel a relief at the idea of "not-tithing"? did you feel any enthusiasm about what new alternatives might arise out of your new freedom? how do you think jesus was motivating you during these creative-thought times?
#4 i'm guessing you all will leave the weekend a little unbalanced; which, at this point in the series, is good. what issues are you wrestling with? are you feeling convicted by your relief? are you feeling ashamed by your lack of conviction? are you fantasizing about how god may be directing you to use your resources?
#5 what dangers are there to westwinds by deconstructing the tithe? how should we proceed forwards without damaging the financial situation of our church?
ok - anxious to hear your thoughts!
- david
this has all recently changed to a dramatic degree.
so, in this series, i'll be deconstructing the tithe. i realize that this has been done before at westwinds, but - to be honest - i've heard and read those sermons and have a low opinion of the hermeneutical methodology employed therein. "a capital experience" is going to take us well beyond those talks and into some very new territory - at least for me!
with this in mind, i'd like your help with the following
#1 was i able to deconstruct tithing without sounding like a jerk, or a know-it-all? was i able to be gracious in the midst of pulling apart a long-standing church-wide belief?
#2 was the deconstruction piece of the talk helpful? did it feel coherent? were you able to follow my arguments about why tithing is biblical but not christian? did you feel like there were areas i left out of my explanation? did you feel like i "fudged" anything?
#3 once we moved past the deconstruction of the tithe, what did you learn about how we ought to manage our resources? did you feel a relief at the idea of "not-tithing"? did you feel any enthusiasm about what new alternatives might arise out of your new freedom? how do you think jesus was motivating you during these creative-thought times?
#4 i'm guessing you all will leave the weekend a little unbalanced; which, at this point in the series, is good. what issues are you wrestling with? are you feeling convicted by your relief? are you feeling ashamed by your lack of conviction? are you fantasizing about how god may be directing you to use your resources?
#5 what dangers are there to westwinds by deconstructing the tithe? how should we proceed forwards without damaging the financial situation of our church?
ok - anxious to hear your thoughts!
- david
posted by david mcdonald at 12:01 PM
6 Comments:
Dave, I think you did a good job of tackling a hard topic and put everything in perspective in a coherent way. And I think what has really sat with me is the idea of context.
I just started reading a book (this past monday) about the debate over whether the Bible is relevant, true, etc. And one of the first things talked about was context. So I think God was hitting me over the head with a hammer about that point.
As far as tithing, I guess I struggle with how much giving is enough. How much money can I save for the future? How much can I use for purely frivolous things? The idea of 10% is nice to think about because I know that 90% is for personal use. With no set tithe, there is a lot of grey area.
The danger I see to the church is not necessarily people giving, but where people are giving. I had heard in the past that regardless of other giving, 10% should go to the church. Now, people may decide to be more generous, but they may give in other places than the church.
OK that's all for me...
#1What a big, scary leap of faith you took yesterday in talking about money. But, I thought you did a fantastic job in not being a jerk. A stroke of genius to whoever thought of giving the tithing before your talk and then explaining why you did so. Growing-up, I saw my parents giving money to the church each week but there was never any explanation as to why we did so. When the baskets were being passed around, no one ever said anything about what was being done with the tithe. You gave simply because that was what was expected. Those who could give more where somehow elevated in status. I really liked that you addressed all of these things and more. Yet, you managed to not make me feel like an idiot for my longstanding beliefs. Great job! And thanks for all the hard work you put into making this series so informative and meaningful.
#2 I thought it was very helpful and well thought out. I liked that you gave us so much background information about where our beliefs came from and how they have changed over the course of history. Again, I though you were so brave to get up in front of every one and be like…We tithe because of this long held belief. But, it’s biblical not Christian. So, it’s not really meant for us. You basically told the congregation that tithing is not something God commands us to do, but something “the church” wants us to do. I was really surprised because I had never heard that before. I wonder if people would feel very mislead by their churches if they knew this information. I think people can feel pressured to give, but I think they may be giving because they believe that it is what God commands them to do. I now know this not to be true. Good, bad, or indifferent.
# 3,4&5 Since coming to Westwinds, my views on money have changed dramatically. You have helped me become more responsible with my finances. And helped my realize that just like everything else in my life, I need to give God control and seek His guidance in this area. However, I have struggled with the 10% “rule”. I work at a camp and have several student loans that take up a lot of my income. And while I have given a tithe each week, I know that it’s not fulfilling the 10% “rule”. If I had a job that provided more income, would it be less of a struggle to give more, yes. Did I feel relief at the idea of “not-tithing?” Yes and no. No, because I think it’s important to support our church. When you love and believe in something, you should invest your time and money. Setting-up some kind of realistic “this amount from everyone would really go a long way” is great. In that case, the “10% rule” comes in handy. It helps answer the question, “How much should I give?” I certainly didn’t know what was “expected” or helpful and the 10% made it easy. However, yes also came to mind. I look at the nature of my job. I work at a camp. Everyone in camping knows that were never going to be millionaires. Most staff make enough to pay their bills and put gas in their cars. We don’t have cable, internet in our housing units, and most of the time we don’t even have a private bedroom. But we do have a job that we LOVE. Regardless of freezing outside in the dead of winter teaching classes or eating hotdogs for lunch everything Thursday for the past year and a half, we love our jobs. We love working with kids. Are the personal sacrifices we make to work at camp worth something? We have degrees that could get us “better” jobs that would make us more money, therefore allowing us to give more to our churches.
I hear it said a lot at Westwinds that we want to help those here, in Jackson. At least some of the tithes given are going towards that cause. That’s great. I have also heard Westwinds ask me what I can do to help those in Jackson. Well, a whole heck of a lot of kids come to camp every year from the Jackson area. I work at camp because I believe what camp can make the difference in the life of a child. Our motto here at Storer is “God is first, others are second, and I’m third.” That is what every child who comes here learns. They also get the chance to see the many wonders that God has created. Many of them have never taken the time or have been given the opportunity to look around them and observe things like the evening sky filled with stars, or animals running through the woods. For me personally, that is where I first saw God. Being outside among all His creations. I could get a better job and make more money to give to the church so they could help others find God. But, I like being able to take the active role of helping…and camp has allowed me that opportunity. Not having to feel guilt about not giving 10% but instead give a tithe and giving my life’s work to camp is very freeing. I strongly feel that God has called me to work at camp. Yes, there are many personal sacrifices in doing so, but I think God is calling me to give more than just my money.
First - Kudos to David on attaining his "Doctor of Ministry".
Second, thought I might respond less sequentially and include comments for Kevin & Angela.
The intro of context and other prior historical acts being bilical but not Christian nailed it. I know one first time visitor, who came to hear the new praise team members, and was surprised, yet approving of the approach taken. Myself, I
was blown away at your research - listening to 50+ sermons, reading 7 books. No question you did your homework, no room for fudging.
No relief, some conviction. I liked the exercise - I found a paper saying "makes sense". I do believe I can't outgive God, but I believe he wants more of my time for the Kingdom. I have been blessed to tithe consistently these past couple years. I don't understand it sometimes, but the math works out. I am not a very material person.
As far as our church, I agree with Kevin that some may be coached to participate in ways other than cash. I wondered if the spirit of generous, joyful and sacrificial may induce some non-giving units to toss a few dollars in, just to feel a closer connection in their hearts with God.
Angela's thoughtful comments caught me. Kind of what I struggle with. I have focused on the 10% rule, and I have been blessed, but I still barely makes ends meet often. I don't have cable, internet, plasma TV, SUV, etc. I am good with that. I am blessed in many ways. My point is that my focus may be off. I continue to hesitate with ways I can serve God by serving Westwinds. There it is. I have restricted my time serving Westwinds and I feel some conviction about it.
Thanks for the message "Dr. McDonald".
#1 was i able to deconstruct tithing without sounding like a jerk, or a know-it-all? was i able to be gracious in the midst of pulling apart a long-standing church-wide belief?
>>> WOW!! I’ve listened to “roughly” 50 years of sermons (probably didn’t sink in during the early years…:--)) and I’ve never heard what I heard this past weekend! Delores and I listened to the podcast (as she was away) and I also enjoyed the slightly different version on the podcast than the 8:30 session (but enjoyed them both). You did an amazing job, not blowing smoke on this one!! I’ve heard similar sermons but they always “included” the tithe as well… sort’ve a combo legalistic & freedom approach. I guess couldn’t quite bring themselves to distance themselves that far from the trunk of the tree… Man, you really climbed out there dude! Especially after hearing the podcast it made me want to ask you about Malachi 3:8 (you never referenced it…, saving it?). It is of course a mainstay of evangelical teaching, yet you mentioned that no where in the bible was the tithe divinely instituted? "Will a man rob God? Yet you rob me.
"But you ask, 'How do we rob you?'
"In tithes and offerings. 9 You are under a curse—the whole nation of you—because you are robbing me. 10 Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this," says the LORD Almighty, "and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you will not have room enough for it.
Anxious to hear and better understand what I’m missing on this one as I suspect I’m only seeing through the prism of the past 50 years of teaching. Legalism is SO MUCH EASIER, eh? (thought I’d through in some Vancouver speak…:--))
#2 was the deconstruction piece of the talk helpful? did it feel coherent? were you able to follow my arguments about why tithing is biblical but not christian? did you feel like there were areas i left out of my explanation? did you feel like i "fudged" anything? (see #1)
#3 once we moved past the deconstruction of the tithe, what did you learn about how we ought to manage our resources? did you feel a relief at the idea of "not-tithing"? did you feel any enthusiasm about what new alternatives might arise out of your new freedom? how do you think jesus was motivating you during these creative-thought times?
>>> Exercising freedom through Christ is stretching to say the least. The example you used with your friend and the home he purchased was an interesting one. I think I’d need to know the situation, as at first glance I understood what you were attempting to convey but on the surface it seemed a bit like the basic process of real-estate acquisition & rental. It did however highlight the freedom to leverage resources to graciously bless others in ways that go beyond the church (the local store-house). While not enough time and page (and won’t bore you at this point), but the most recent experience I’ve encountered in following God’s lead is in the area of adoption, required going way out the limb for me and being open to the second half of my life being about more than just me (not something I’ve been well conditioned for….:--))
#4 i'm guessing you all will leave the weekend a little unbalanced; which, at this point in the series, is good. what issues are you wrestling with? are you feeling convicted by your relief? are you feeling ashamed by your lack of conviction? are you fantasizing about how god may be directing you to use your resources?
>>> Its been a journey I’ve been on for quite some time. I think this has been a teaching moment the Lord has used along the way, but in my case not totally radical (perhaps more confirming….). Lots more to un-pack on this journey though….
#5 what dangers are there to westwinds by deconstructing the tithe? how should we proceed forwards without damaging the financial situation of our church?
>>> Great question! Popped into my little brain on more than one occasion. I loved the analogy of 4xx giving units and ave of $30K (for instance!). There are lots of ways to look at this. In the “freedom” scenario one picture is that result could be similar but with some having the freedom to give less if need be and some exercising the “joy” in giving far more! Bottom line is I think that if God has led you here as the teaching pastor, then he will lead you/us to and through the gauntlet. LOTS MORE TO UNPACK HERE AS WELL. Key question really circles back to “HEART” and “TRUST”. One of the very cool aspects of Malachi 3:8 is that I believe is the only time in the Bible that God states that we should test him on what is almost a challenge about out-giving him. This is of course heavily used by the AG crew and for me also abused a bit, but that’s just me.
Right off the bat I want to say.....I think churches have made the tithe issue a "Black and White"to "make budget" and to also give people a starting place. The previous church I came from spent so much time legislating the "gray" that it became confusing to me what was truly biblical and what was not! I became legalistic about things...especially drinking. OK...maybe my first reason was a little harsh but nevertheless, Dave you were willing to take a very deep, open look at the issue and help us through the process of researching this for ourselves.
#1Yes Dave...you pulled it off! You were not a jerk. By doing this, I hope it causes people to take a look for themselves...self-feeding is our goal right?
#2 Biblical vs Christian was very helpful! I enjoy the "research emphasis" in your messages. There are many people sitting amongst us that do not know any of the very basic stories, so I would challenge you to always have a research/context piece in your messages.
#3 Jesus has called us to an "open hand" approach to everything we have anyway. This part was not "new" for me. We have always done the 10% to the church offering basket, then as much as we are led to give to other things/needs/causes. It was a reminder of this concept for me!
#4 I am ok at this point with how you presented this and where you landed this talk. Leaving it where you did was a bit risky, but I am all about letting the Holy Spirit do His work in people. I hope you have gotten a lot of interesting feedback this week!
#5 I am praying and trusting that the people of WW will be so moved by their "freedom" to give abundantly! I worked the onfo. table on Sunday and I had the opportunity to talk with several people about the message. They had come to the table to give $$$$$$ AFTER the service...isn't that cool! They were so moved by what they heard that they WANTED to give before they left the church!!! I am looking forward to what is going to happen at WW as a result of this deconstructive message! Press on Dave!!!
great feedback, all - thanks very much!
i'd like to point out, however, that much of what i taught this weekend really did come from stuart murray williams [the head of the anabaptist network in the uk - http://www.anabaptistnetwork.com] and he deserves to be mentioned once again.
in addition, i'd like to give you all the confidence that i'll make reference to malachi 3 within the larger context of the series, but i'm probably going to wait until the final week to do so. i really think that the context of malachi is signigicantly different than our own, and in this case, doesn't cross-apply.
more later!
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